In The Interest of Jane Doe and Tamera Doe1
Proceedings Before the Hon. Richard X. Jackson

Appearances:
Nancy J. Stevens, for the People;
Jonathan R. Miller, for the Mother;
Zachary M. Bravos, for the Father;
Steven R. Wiener, Public defender, for the minors.

The Court:
Good afternoon, Janie.  I'm Judge Jackson.  This is our court reporter and he's taking down all of the questions, statements, answers, anything that are done today.  All that you are really looking at is a shorthand typewriter, that's what that is.  If you have ever seen one before, I don't know.  This is Mr. Bravos.  He represents your father.  Mr. Wiener, I think you have met.  He represents you.
Janie: Okay.
The Court:
This is Nancy Stevens.  She's an assistant state's attorney.
Janie: Yes.
The Court:
And this is Mr. Miller.  He represents your mother.  Let me ask you a few questions, Janie.
  
Janie Doe, called as a witness herein, was examined and testified as follows:
  
By the Court:
Q How old are you at this time?
A 10.
Q 10?  Okay.  And what grade of school are you in?
A Fifth.
Q Fifth grade?  Janie, in essence, do you know why you are here today?  Kind of?
A Yeah.
Q The end result which the Court wishes to achieve is a reuniting of you and Tamera with your father and your mother.
Now, it may be that your father and your mother may never live again together.  I don't know.  And the question is: how to best achieve that result.  Okay?
A Okay.
Q Janie, let me ask you this.  Can I assume a young lady of your age, being in fifth grade, you know the difference between right and wrong?  Is this a fair statement?
A Yes.
Q You know what it is to tell the truth?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever been in a situation whereby you have had to testify under oath?
A No.
Q Okay.  Because I'm going to ask you to raise your right hand right now.  Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
A Yes, I do.
Q All right.
  
The Court:
Ms. Stevens — You can put your hand down.  Ms. Stevens, I think you want to start the questions.
  
Ms. Stevens:
Yes.  Thank you, judge.
    
Examination By Ms. Stevens:
Q Janie, do you want to state your age again for the record?
A 10.
Q And your full name?
A Janie Elizabeth Doe.
The Court:
Janie, could you talk a little louder?  Thank you.
Q Where do you live right now, Janie?
A In Forest City.
Q Who do you live with?
A Sharon Tuttle.
Q Is that your foster mom?
A Yes.
Q Okay.  How long have you been living there?
A A little over two months.
Q Do you like it there
A It's okay, but I'd rather be at home.
Q What do you like about the foster home?
A There's kids there and Sharon is there to comfort me.
Q Do you like Sharon?
A Yes.
Q Do you go to school — 
A Yes.
Q — over there?  What school do you go to?
A I go to Kennedy.
Q You are in fifth grade?
A Yes.
Q Do you like school?
A Yes.
Q What are some of the classes you take?
A Language, reading, spelling.
Q Are you in accelerated classes?
A Yes.
Q Is there anything you don't like about the foster home?
A Some of the kids and —
Q You can go ahead and explain if there is something you want to explain about what you don't like.
A Basically — It's different than like being at my regular home and I have to like adapt to different surroundings and stuff.  It's pretty hard.
Q Okay.  Where did you live before you lived at the foster home?
A In Lakewood.
Q Who did you live with there?
A My mom and my brother and my sister.
Q Okay. How many people are in your family?  I mean in your immediate family.  Your mom and your sister and your dad?
A Yeah.
Q And you?
A Yes.
Q When you lived in Lakewood, did you have any pets?
A Yes.  I had one dog and two cats.
Q Do you guys have pets at the foster home?
A Yes.
Q What kind of pets does she have?
A

Three Newfoundlands, two toy poodles, five birds, three bunny rabbits. That's all.
Q Do you guys help take care of them?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a certain job that you do?
A I help feed the birds and clean the cages.
Q

Okay.  Have you been seeing a therapist, Janie, doctor?
A Yes.
Q Who do you see?
A Dr. Freeman.
Q Dr. Freeman?
A Yes.
Q How long have you seen him?  About.
A At the foster home?
Q

I mean like have you seen him for a long time or just recently?
A For a long time.
Q For a long time?  When do you see him?
A I see him now, every Monday.
Q So once a week —
A Yes.
Q — you see him?  Do you like seeing Dr. Freeman?
A Yes.
Q What do you do when you see Dr. Freeman?
A Just talk about my feelings and —
Q Do you like to see Dr. Freeman?
A He helps me with my feelings and he helps me to know what to do if a certain feeling comes up, if I have something bad happen to cope with it.
Q Does he listen to your problems then?
A Yes.
Q And what else do you do besides talking?  Do you do anything else when you see Dr. Freeman?
A We play games.
Q What kind of games?
A Basketball, miniature hoop.  And he teaches me how to juggle.
Q How to juggle?
A Yes.
Q Do you want to continue to see Dr. Freeman?
A Yes.
Q Do you feel like Dr. Freeman helps you?
A Yes.  Very much.
Q Are you able to tell Dr. Freeman things that you can't tell other people?
A Yes.
Q Do you ever visit with your mom as well?
A Yes, I do.
Q When do you visit your mom?
A Mostly every Tuesday.
Q For about how long?
A An hour.
Q Do you like to visit with your mother?
A Yes.
Q Why do you like that?
A Because I miss her and she's my mom.
Q Do you ever visit with your dad?
A No.
Q Why don't you?
A I just don't feel like —
The Court:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you,
Janie: I don't want to because of what he has done and I don't think he deserves to see me.
Mr. Bravos:
I'm sorry.  I didn't hear what you said.
Janie: I don't think he deserves to see me.
Q

And why don't —  What specifically are you talking about what he did to you?
A He abused me and —
Q

That's fine.  Would you like to see your mom more than you see her?
A Yes.
Q How come?
A (No response)
Q

That's okay.  You have kind of said it already.
Would you like to visit your dad if your dad would get some help?
A No.
Q Do you ever want to visit with your dad?
A No.
Q

Do you know if your mom has a therapist that she visits with?
A Yes.  She has John Baumeister.
Q Okay.  Do you know does your dad see a therapist?
A I don't know.
Q

Would you like to see your mom continue going to therapy?
A Yes.
Q How come?
A

Because she has problems that need to — and she needs to know how to handle them and stuff.
Q So kind of for the same reasons you like to.
A Yes.
Q Okay.  Would you like to see your dad see a therapist?
A Yes.
Q What good things can you tell us about your dad?
A He's helpful sometimes.
Q Are there any bad things about your dad that you want to tell us that you don't like?
A Like recently — not recently, but before I stopped seeing him and stuff he didn't care to have us because he wouldn't go to work or pay for anything and he wouldn't do anything for us.
Q Okay.  What good things do you like about your mom?
A She's nice and in hard times when I can't see Dr. Freeman she's there.
Q Are there any things that you don't like about your mom or you'd like to see your mom work on?
A Not really.
Q

Is there anyone else who you have good or bad feelings about?
A Yes.
Q Who else?
A My grandma.
Q

What kind of feelings do you have for your grandma?
A I don't like her either.
Q Which grandma is this, is this your dad's mom or your mom's mom?
A My mom's mom.
Q Why don't you like your grandmother?
A Because she does the same things that my dad had done.
Q Do you feel — All right.  Do you feel safe right now at the foster home?
A Sort of, yes.
Q Why do you feel safe?  Are there any people you feel safe with?
A Dr. Freeman and if we were to move and my dad wouldn't know where I was with my mom.
Q Are there people you don't feel safe with?
A Yes.
Q Like who?
A My dad and my grandma.
Q

If the judge were to ask you today where you would like to go to live, what would you tell him?
A With my mom and my brother and sister.
Q Do you see your brother?
A

Sometimes.
Q Do you talk to him at all?
A

Yes. Sometimes I get a call from the foster home to my house and talk to him, see how he's doing.
Q Does he still live with your mom?
A Yes.
Q Do you miss seeing your brother?
A Yes.
Q Did you and — it is Scott, right?
A Yes.
Q Did you and Scott get along well?
A Yes.
Q Why?
A I don't know.
Q

Like what are some of the things you do with Scott?
A We play games with each other and sometimes he like takes me out with his friends.  It's pretty good for an older brother to do.
Q How old is Scott?
A He's 16.
Q How do you and Tamera get along?
A Pretty good.
Q Pretty good.
Do you have the same room at the foster home?
A Yes.
Q You and Tamera ever talk about your feelings?
A

Sometimes Tamera talks to me but I don't feel safe talking to her.
Q Why not?
A

Because I'm afraid she'd — when she sees my dad she'd tell and then I'd feel like he'd get mad at me more than he is already.
Q How do you feel about Tamera seeing your dad?
A

I don't want her to see him, but that's not for me to decide.
Q Is there anything that you want to tell the judge today or ask — anything that you want to make clear to him about your feelings or say to him?
A Only that I very much want to go home again.
Q Anything else?
A (No response)
Ms. Stevens:
I have no further questions.
The Court:
Mr. Miller, would you like to ask Janie any questions?
Mr. Miller:
Just a couple.
    
Examination By Mr. Miller:
  
Q Now Janie, you said that you — you told the judge that you wanted to go live with your mom.  Did you say why you wanted to do that?
A No.
Q Do you have any reasons other than just you miss her and she's your mom?  Do you think that your mom could take care of you?
A Yes, I do.
Q Have you talked to your brother over the telephone?  Is that what I heard you say?  Or Scott over the telephone.
A Yes.
Q When is the last time you talked to him?
A I don't know.
Q Was it a couple weeks ago or a month ago?
A Couple weeks ago.
Q Do you talk to Dr. Freeman about your dad?
A Yes.
Q

Does Dr. Freeman help you in how you feel about your dad do you think?
A Yes.
Q You would want to keep seeing Dr. Freeman?
A Yes.
Mr. Miller:
I guess that's all at this time, judge.
The Court:
Mr. Wiener, do you have any questions of Janie?
Mr. Wiener:
Just a couple, judge.
    
Examination By Mr. Wiener:
  
Q

Janie, you said you were kind of scared of your dad. Is that what you said?
A Yes.
Q And that's because of what he had done to you?
A Yes.
Q

Do you think there will ever be a time — strike that.  Let me rephrase that question.
Q What would make you less scared of your dad?
A I don't know.
Q

I think Ms. Stevens had mentioned that if he had gone through therapy, would that change your mind about him?
A No.
Q

You don't think so?  Do you think there's any thing that would change your mind about how you feel about him?
A No.
Q

You also stated you didn't care for your grandma that much, you were scared of her also.
A Yes.
Q

Is there anything that would make you change your mind about her?
A No.
Q

How do you feel about Tamera visiting your dad?
A I don't like it.
Q Why don't you like it?
A

I just feel that he may like — I don't know how to say it — tell her things about me.  And then in the past he's written me letters and stuff and seeing him he could give those things to me and those things —
Q

So you're scared about the way your dad will act toward you if Tamera sees him.
A Yes.
Q When you see Dr. Freeman, you said you talk about your feelings —
A Yes.
Q — and about your dad?  And you do this by talking, isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q And also through games and things like that?
A Yes.
Q After you go to Dr. Freeman, does it make you feel better to go see him?
A Yes.
Q Is there anybody else that you kind of talk to the same way as you talk to Dr. Freeman?  I think you mentioned your mom.  Is there anybody else you talk to like that?
A One time I went in to John Baumeister because I think Dr. Freeman was somewhere else and I couldn't handle some of my feelings, so my mom took me over there and I talked to him.
Q Do you ever talk to your foster mom about stuff?
A Yes.
Q Does she help you, make you feel a little bit better?
A Yes.
Mr. Wiener:
I have nothing further, judge.
The Court:
Mr. Bravos, do you have some questions?
Mr. Bravos:
I have some of Janie.
    
Examination By Mr. Bravos:
  
Q Janie, what would you like to see happen to your father?
A I'd like to see him not being able to see me or Tamera and this should be like away from my family.
Q Would you like to see him maybe in jail?
A Yes.
Q Would you like to see him dead, if he were to die?
A No.
Q

Do you think he should go to jail for a long time?
A Just 'til he recognizes what he had done.
Q You don't think he recognizes what he did?
A No.
Q What do you mean by that?
A

I mean like one of the letters in the past he's written to me, he was wondering why I didn't want to see him and —
Q So you think he doesn't — do you think he doesn't remember what he did or that he just won't admit what he did?
A I just think he won't admit, sort of not remember.
Q And when someone asked you about your grandma, that makes you — your grandma, your mother's mother — that makes you scared too.
A Yes.
Q Even more than your dad or about the same?
A Pretty much about the same.
Q They both did — they both abused you?
A Yes.
Q And had they both did the same things to you?
A Basically, yes.
Q Do you know if your grandmother, the one that you're afraid of, if she ever abused your mother too?
A I don't know.
Q How does your mother — what does your mother think of her own mother?  Do you know what I'm asking?
A  Yes.  Because of the things she had done to me, my mom doesn't like her.
Q You have another grandmother too, don't you?
A Yes.
Q What do you call her?
A What do you mean?
Q What's your name for her?  Like if I talk about her, you'll know who I'm talking about.
A Grandma.
Q Grandma?  Okay.
A Yes.
Q That's your dad's mother?
A Yes.
Q How do you feel about her?
A She's all right.
Q Are you afraid of her at all?
A Sort of.
Q Why are you afraid of her?
A I don't know.
Q But you are afraid of her?
A Yes.
Q How about your grandfather, your father's father, how do you feel about him?
A He's all right.
Q Janie, do you remember when you were in the hospital?
A Yes.
Q Okay. When were you there?
A Last year, in the beginning of last year.
Q These things that your father and that your grandmother did to you, did you always remember them?
A Uh-uh (no).
Q When did you first remember them?
A Around Christmas time in 1990.
Q What happened then that had you remember these things?
A I don't — I was seeing them more often than usual.  That's basically it.
Q Did you get help in remembering these things in the hospital?
A Yes.
Q Who helped you to remember these things?
A One of the nurses there, Susan.  I don't remember what her last name was.  And then Judy Martinez.
Q How was it that they would help you to remember?
A I don't know.
Q Let's say with Susan, what kind of things would you do with Susan?
A Well, she just talked to me and started asking me questions and that's — we'd get into it.
Q Get into what?
A Get into talking about it.
Q Do you remember using with Susan this sand, playing with the sand tray?
A Yes.
Q What kind of things would you do with the sand tray?
A Just make it in certain places and put figures in there to represent something.
Q What kind of figures, what were they going to represent?
A I don't know.  Red leaves with rivers and a fire, like that.
Q Did you have like little toys or something or like things you could actually put in there?
A Yes.
Q What kind of stuff would you have?
A Like little dolls, miniature things that go in a doll house and then tables and then some other things like that.
Q Did this help you to remember too?
A Yes.
Q How does this help — how did that help you remember?
A I don't know.
Q Well, before you remembered these things, were you afraid of your father?
A Not really.
Q Janie, do you have parts inside you?
A Yes.
Q What are parts?  What would you call them, if I said I don't understand what that means?  What are you talking about when you have parts inside you?
A Like different feeling type things. They just — there's — Hold it.  I don't know how to say it.
Q I don't know either.  That's why I was asking.
Why don't you describe it for me the best way you can?
A They're like little people and —
Q Do they have faces?  Can you think that they each have like different faces?
A Yes, I can think that.
Q Do they talk to you?
A Yes.
Q Is that something like you can hear just inside your own head?
A Yes.
Q What kind of things do they tell you?
A I don't know. Like — I don't know.
Q Do they tell you good things?
A Sometimes.  Other times things I don't want to hear; I'm afraid of something.
Q Do they ever tell you about abuse?
A Yes.
Q Is there like — well, how many parts are there?
A I don't know.
Q Is there more than one or two or —
A Yes, there's more than one or two.
Q Well, I don't know what's in there, so that's why I'm asking you.  Are there like ten, twenty?
A Maybe between ten and fifteen, something like that.
Q Do you sometimes find new parts?
A Yes.
Q When is the last time you found a part?
A Probably last year when — maybe the fall, around then.
Q Does that part have a name?
A Not yet.
Q What does that part do?
A Holds in something, feelings about some people.  Like that part helps in feelings about my dad.
Q You say you have a part that has the feelings about your dad?
A Yes.
Q What are the feelings that that part has?
A Angry, mad.
Q Does that part talk to you?
A Yes.
Q What does that part tell you?
A I don't know.  It just tells me — not really how to feel, but how it feels and then I usually tell somebody else and —
Q Well, you're going to have to help me a little bit with that.
A I know.
Q We'll talk about the part that has — holds your feelings about your dad.
A Okay.
Q You actually hear that part talk to you?
A Yes, sometimes.
Q Is it a boy or a girl?
A I don't know.
Q Does that — do you hear it like only at night or in the day or anytime or —
A Anytime.
Q And can you understand what it says?
A Sometimes.
Q Sometimes you can't?
A Uh-huh (yes).
Q But when you can't understand it, what does it sound like to you?
A Mumbles and — really confusing and I don't know what to think about it.
Q So like — I'm just trying to imagine myself.  Would it be like — maybe like — do you ever play a record where you can't — it's on the wrong speed?
A Yes.
Q Is it that kind of thing?
A Yes.  Sort of.
Q And when you can understand it, what does it tell you?
A Like I said before, it's feelings about dad.
Q Does it say — that's what I'm trying to get some help with.  Does it say "I feel angry about your father" or something like that?
A Yes.  Or else it says that — saying these are my feelings right now about him and then —
Q I'm just asking you because I can't see what's in there.  Did you always have these parts?
A I don't know.
Q Did you get these parts — did you find out about these parts in the hospital?
A Yes.
Q Was there somebody there to help you find out about these parts?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Susan.
Q We walked a little bit about Susan.
A Yes.
Q We didn't get into much about Judy Martinez.  Who was she?
A She was one of the therapists there.
Q And what does she do?
A She helped me about my feelings also.  She — the only reason Judy Martinez was there, because Susan, she wasn't certified or something like that.  Then Judy Martinez was her boss.
Q Okay.
A Sometimes when Susan wasn't there I'd have to talk to her.
Q Do you know how your mom feels about Judy Martinez?
A No.
Q Do you like Judy Martinez?
A Uh-uh (no).